Eternal Security Dialogue
QUESTION ASKED:
“How does one loose what he did not earn?”
REPLY:
Ask Jesus, He said to His own that we must endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22; 24:13).
You could also ask: WHY does Jesus save only some and not all? After all JESUS earned salvation for all, right? … God gave man conditions to be saved. The Bible teaches both initial and final salvation.
You have been misled and therefore are confusing what Jesus did and what Jesus requires us to do to be saved – initially and finally – repentance and faith. Jesus said “It is finished” when HIS work was finished. Yet, this same LORD commanded us to deny self, take up the cross daily in order to follow Him – otherwise we are not following Him and will not be with Him (Luke 9:23-24).
REPLY:
Your experience means nothing, neither does mine (Romans 3:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). God’s written Word is final divine authority and you are clearly contradicting it and have much to answer for in how you have misled many for over 30 years. Repent sinner. Your years in “ministry” only reveal just how sadly you have wasted those years peddling Satan’s first lie which led to the fall of mankind – Gen 2:17; 3:4.
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“Rightly divide, Matthew 10:22 is not for the church age but for the Jews.”
REPLY:
WHO said that Matthew 10 is only for the Jews? Not God. So, you are saying that Jesus’ words aren’t for His New Testament saints? Wow! Rightly divide – this truth spans the whole of God’s Word. Rightly divide – there is one body in Christ, not 2 (Eph 2). So, if this passage is speaking of the final days, and it is, are there not both Jew and Gentile believers? Yes.
You’ve gotten misled on this.
If that verse isn’t applicable to ALL NT saints, why is in God’s Word? AND, then you can’t use any other verse in that chapter, right? Wrong.
So this doesn’t apply to all of Christ’s saints?
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
None of this from that text applies????
Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Also, your logic would mean there’s no need for the 39 books of the Old Testament and yet the NEW Testament says: “For whatsoever things were written aforetime (OT!) were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” Romans 15:4)
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“But teaching you can lose your salvation is works salvation!”
REPLY:
SO, listening to Jesus who says you can “fall away” and must “endure to the end” to be “saved” is works salvation???? Wow. (Lk 8:13; Matt 1:22; 24:13)
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“Hey brother I’m a little confused how do you lose your salvation. I was under the impression that once Born Again into the family of God always a child of God kind of like The Prodigal Son he never lost his sonship. Don’t get me wrong he was eating with the pigs but I can’t find instructions in my Bible had to be born again again again all of our work is going to be tested by fire
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: KJB”
REPLY:
The prodigal son sure did lose his place for his sin and so shall we if we rebel.
He was lost again and needed to be restored…. notice that God did not go run after him and yet it was only as he returned/repented that God restored, forgive him…. if he didn’t return/repent he would have remained lost and perished in hell.
You posted this. Now watch this closely: “By which also ye are saved, IF IF IF (conditional) ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.” 1 Corinthians 15:2
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“So you don’t believe we are eternally secure?” Baptist pastor
REPLY:
Undeniably, un-conditional eternal security is the first lie Satan told to mankind which caused his fall – and he’s still telling the same lie (Gen 2:17; 3:4). Jesus taught “If a man abide (remain) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6). See also Ezek 33:12-13 and Matt 10:22; 24:13; 2 Pet 2:20-21; Heb 10:26-39, etc.).
“To hate is the world’s part, but to endure until the end is our key part who suffer for our Lord. To be hated is a key point to keep in mind of the world, but to endure is our key to succeed and to enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Daniel Kim
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“But aren’t we told by Jesus that no man can pluck us out of His hand?”
REPLY:
Yes Jesus told us in v27 of John 10 exactly who He was speaking to – those who present tense hear His voice and follow Him, presently:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:27-29
In v27 Jesus gives the condition for the promise of verses 28-29.
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“Abide doesn’t mean continue in John 15:6.”
REPLY:
Apparently you are here seen to be choosing to peddle a lie – to cling to a diabolical tradition, heresy instead of conforming to the truth.
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” John 15:6
Abide
G3306
μένω
menō
men’-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): – abide, CONTINUE, DWELL, ENDURE, be present, REMAIN, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
Total KJV occurrences: 120
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
“Some shall depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-2) – The Greek word here – ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai – is that from which we have derived the word “apostatize,” and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would “apostatize” from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word “some,” here τινες tines – does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that “certain persons” would thus depart, or that “there would be” an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, in the last days. From the parallel passage in 2Th_2:3, it would seem that this was to be an extensive apostasy.”
REPLY:
Nonsense. How could they possible “depart FROM” something they weren’t already in? Impossible. Those who depart from “the doctrine of Christ” – that which Scripture reveals Him to be – do not have God! Nothing could be clearer. – “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in (does not remain in) the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” 2 John 9 Un-conditional eternal security is a lie from hell.
You claim to be Christ’s yet you defy the Son of God you claim to serve for your foolish traditions and lies … like the hell bound pharisees of Christ’s day you refuse to ditch them for HIM at the hearing of HIS Word (Mark 7:6-9) – “If a man abide (remain) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” John 15:6 Those who don’t remain in Christ after being saved are going to hell! Nothing could be more clear.
QUESTION ASKED:
“So you don’t believe you were chosen before the foundation …. that we are capable of raising ourselves from death to life?”
REPLY:
Hi. ALL men were chosen to be saved and only Christ can raise them from their dead state and yet, God did not foreordain that some go to hell BEFORE they could choose. God SOVEREIGNLY gave free will to all men. All of calvinism is false. It’s an extra-biblical system of theology that perverts the grace, divine character, and original Gospel message. Read Rom 2:11; 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2 Calvinists are snakes who twist and pervert everything they touch to their own destruction. For example, they redefine the Bible word Sealed. The sealed scam exposed. Calvinism Busted
MESSAGE RECEIVED:
QUESTION ASKED:
“Brother Todd, there were good points made here.After listening to this debate, my question to you is much like Pastor Andrew’s question. At what sin does one lose their salvation? I mean we sin daily and what happens if we forget to repent of a particular sin?”
Are you going to listen to the LORD truly and let HIM answer that OR will you rebel and believe the doctrine of mere men and devils? That’s the big question.
Read Ezek 33:12-13 and Gal 5:19-21 and Rev 21:8; Ezek 18:30 and 2 Peter 2:20-21
Ever read the book of Hebrews – with a truly honest heart, dropping all preconceived notions?
The bigger question is: Is God Holy? Are the wages of sin still death?
Question Received:
“I think I’m FINALLY starting to understand how OSAS is heresy, but want to see if I do get it. So, it’s possible for someone who was once born again to go to hell?
A person is born again, and you can see the fruits. They change, the don’t desire worldly things, only Godly things. They are convicted of sin and repent. They pray, study the Bible, all the things born again believers do. Then, after some time, they slip away from that. They go back to old sins, and follow after fleshly lusts, but they still know it’s wrong. They start to realize they have drifted away, and start to come back around, but don’t repent of all sins (they don’t deny they are sinning or try defend it, but say they are struggling with it). They still say they love God, and will even continue to pray and study the Bible, and because they believe OSAS, they don’t realize that they are hell bound. Is that right?”
Reply:
Hi Misty, people who are truly born again which means their whole life is changed as the LORD makes them a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17-18) and then, “they are again entangled therein, and overcome” by the “pollutions of the world” and turn again to their own vomit. “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22 …. I highly recommend the book “Lie of the Ages” to answer so many questions from God’s Word that we all have ….. it comes in e-book or print.
Well, repentance is more than just confessing certain sins. It’s more of a turning back to the LORD. At that point He will quicken the confession of sins (1 John 1:9).
Question Received:
“What Verse can I show my cousin that I’m Not a legalist because I do not believe in the OSAS? She accuses me of being a legalist Pharisee because I do not believe in un-conditional eternal security.”
Reply:
That is a common objection from those who have bought the lie of OSAS. Nothing works better than lovingly quoting Scripture verbatim. Tell her that “obedience is not legalism.” The only Savior said “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21) Concentrate on the word “doeth” in matt 7:21 and also see Matthew 25:1-13. Then, break out 1 John 2:4 too and Titus 1:16 and James 1:22. Those verses of holy truth will stifle that lie she has been taught. God’s Word WILL have it’s effect (Isaiah 55:11).
To a man who called me an Arminian and insisted his battle was against Arminians, the following reply was given:
“Friend, when you truly come to Christ, you will cease laboring and being heavy laden, which is the fruit of all who follow a mere system of theology (of mere men) …. you will then cease warring against a certain sect you view as an enemy….. i have nothing to do with arminianism, have never studied it …. just Bible. No one who simply studies Scripture is going to come away with the 5 points of calvinism … it’s just not there.”
Message Received:
A guy who was attempting to defend OSAS as “a wonderful biblical truth,” and asserted that “The Devil is quite clever and subtle at attacking Biblical truths and has done so since the fall of man in the garden of Eden!”
Response:
The “Lie of the Ages” introduced to mankind in the Garden of creation is quite the opposite of what you assert. How did the enemy of all souls cause the fall of man? By telling man he must obey God? NO! Satan added just one 3-letter word to God’s Word and cause the fall of mankind. He is still deceiving many to add to what Holy Scripture clearly teaches. God kept His promises and severed the man and woman out of His holy presence when they sinned. See Gen. 2:17; 3:4.
***God has not changed and believers who make free choice to yield to sin against the God and Judge of our eternal souls who is “Holy, holy, holy,” will suffer separation. The wages of sin is STILL death and without personal holiness, NO MAN shall see the LORD (Rom. 6:23; Heb. 12:14). God requires that if we sin that we repent, returning to Him and confessing that sin (1 John 1:7, 9; Heb. 4:14-16). There is no such thing as a license for sin or “get out of hell free card.”
Moral cowards (“the fearful” Rev. 21:8) who refuse to fear God and deny self and take up the daily cross, love smooth little teachings that pretend to give them “assurance” while they are lukewarm, at ease in Zion, and simply indulging themselves in the love of this world, all of which are named as soul-damning sins (Amos 6:1; 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Rev. 3:15-16).
“The destination of unrepentant sinners is the lake of fire.” Steven Peisley
Message Received:
Arguing from an OSAS perspective, one man writes: “I really think Todd you appear to be misinterpreting the biblical truth that once God in His mercy and Grace saves you then surely it would be absolutely ludicrous to assume that you would be lost eternally!” …..
Response:
Where does the BIBLE (biblical truth) say that once God saves us that we can’t afterward be lost? Nowhere! In fact, believers (the saved) are warned over and over and over to remain/abide in Christ or be cast into the fires of hell (Jn. 15:1-6), to continue to the end in order to be saved (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Heb. 3:6, 12-14), to make our calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:10), to fear and obey God not self or sin (Rom. 6:16; 2 Cor. 7:1), to behold the goodness and severity of God or else be “cut off” from Him (Rom. 11:19-22), to not be lukewarm lest we be rejected/vomited from Him (Rev. 3:15-16), to not let the love of this world and sins of the flesh keep you from being ready to meet the LORD (1 Jn. 2:15-17; Lk. 21:34-36), etc., etc., etc.,…..
NO honest and true believer in Jesus Christ can read the following passages and still believe he is un-conditionally eternally secure:
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22
“So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me…Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.” Ezekiel 33:7, 12-13
Explode the myth of ‘once saved always saved’ – read Romans 11:19-23 & Ezekiel 33:12-13; 2 Peter 2:20-22; Hebrews 2:1; 3:6, 12-14; 6:4-6; 10:26-39, etc.
Message Received in Response to an OSAS Expose’ Message:
“Excuse me? Making fun of eternal security are they? – those who follow Jesus have eternal security.” Susan
Reply:
Yes, Susan, as long as they are following/abiding/remaining in Christ, otherwise they will be “cut off” and “fall away” and ultimately cast into the fires of hell (John 15:1-6; Rom. 11:22; Lk. 8:13).
Question Received:
“Sanctification is important, but short of deliberately rejecting God, how exactly does one lose one’s salvation?” Andy
Reply:
Andy, such a question would seem to only be asked by a person who has been taught the false notion that once one is saved, they are eternally secure no matter what they do afterwards. No such myth was ever taught by Christ and His holy apostles. People want unconditional eternal security to be true because they simply do not want to take the personal responsibility to die to self, laying down their lives, which Jesus says is essential to following Him (Luke 9:23-24). Rejecting God happens very practically, when a person Christ has once saved, sets Christ aside in His daily life. Falling away has at this time occurred and it doesn’t take a blatant, verbalized, stomping off public rejection.
Message Received:
Well see, a broken promise is a lie and so it seems that it would a nail in the coffin of the deity of Christ. Now I am not a Calvinist so don’t jump that gun. I am merely saying that maybe Judas was never saved to begin with. That would mean that Jesus is not a liar, also that Judas was not saved. Two stones with one bird.
Reply:
The Bible says that Judas was Jesus’ “own familiar FRIEND.” (Ps. 41:9) Judas then fell by his “own transgression.” (Acts 1:25) God made many promises to Israel and individuals that He never fulfilled because promises are primarily conditional – based on the continued obedience of the one the promise was given to. Gal. 6:9; Heb. 6:10-12….. God promises Israel the promise land but only a few made it in (Num. 13-14; 1 Cor. 10:1-12). Many fell by the 5 sins He told us disqualifed them from the promise land and will disqualify us. There are many, many examples of this throughout Scripture. The book of Jude recounts several of God’s beings who fell or apostatized – departed from Him after being with Him in relationship.
***Notice how those who defend this evil theology which makes God out to be an evil, hateful, respecter of persons are not defending Christ in the true Gospel but rather whining about anyone who would dare tamper with their little pet heretical system of falsehood (calvinism)…. this reveals that they are not saved. Following a man or the teachings of mere sinful men reveals that one doesn’t know Him just as the pharisees didn’t know Jesus (Matt. 21:31; Mark 7:6-9; John 5:39-40; 8:47).
More on Judas here – Calvinist Nightmare: The Judas Dilemma
E-MAIL RESPONSE FROM READER:
Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR?
“Amen, Amen, Amen! I believe that the OSAS doctrine is what is spoken about in Jude 1:4 – That there will be those who change the grace of God into lasciviousness. In every institution I attended that taught this doctrine of devils, the people lived like heathens. John Calvin died an unrepentant murderer….enough said! Now all you proud Calvinist keep all your well trained arguments I don’t buy it anymore. Signed former Calvinist.”
E-MAIL RESPONSE FROM READER:
“You teach that a person can be right with GOD only by their obedience to the commands of GOD. You teach that a person once saved can be lost. You quote verse after verse after verse to prove that a person must obey the commands of GOD to be right with GOD. Are you equating being right with GOD and being saved? Is there no room for sin in GOD’s salvation? If there is no room for sin in GOD’s salvation I am eternally lost and without hope. I am glad there are teachers who see GOD’s salvation differently. Captured by HIS grace, Gene”
RESPONSE:
“Beloved Gene, I want to encourage you to look to the Teacher who gave us His holy Word so we don’t have to depend on sinful men (like myself), but rather have His truth for our own selves. A life in the Word is the only cure for confusion. “GREAT PEACE have they that love thy law (Word) and nothing shall offend them.” (Ps. 119:165) Jesus told us that only those who DO the will of His Father will be in Heaven – Matt 7:21. We are only saved by the grace of God and yet that grace shows up in the way we live if we really possess it, otherwise we are deceived and headed for damnation. Salvation simply is not an unforfeitable possession (2 Pet. 2:20-22; Ezek. 33:12-13). Did the Almighty somehow cease to be “holy, holy, holy” now that He saved us!? How blind and arrogant we have become! Now is it loving to hide this Bible truth or to unveil and communicate it so people can be warned and take shelter under the shadow of His holy wing? Truth protects (Prov. 30:5). “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, TEACHING US that, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.” (Titus 2:11-12) The numerous Bible verses which show sin defiles and will damn the soul if not repented of in the life of a person who has once believed should deeply move us to the fear of God and not to argue with the One we claim to be serving who gave us these truths. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Pet. 4:18) Be warned: “He that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.” (Ezek 33:5) Jesus warned us all: “And take heed to yourselves (personal responsibility), lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:34-36 Ready or Not – Jesus is coming, and He’s only going to justify those who are looking for Him in the way they live by purifying their hearts by authentic, saving faith (Heb. 9:27-28; Acts 15:9; 1 John 3:1-3; Rev. 2-3, etc.). This important subject is thoroughly addressed in the book titled “Lie of the Ages.” God’s blessings in Jesus, the Truth, todd”
E-MAIL RESPONSE FROM READER:
“Now what you are saying is, ‘if I keep all these rules you have stated, and all the other commands found in the Bible then I will be right with God.’ If I can do that then why do I need Jesus? If I can keep all these commandments and be right before God, or Righteous then I don’t need a redeemer and Jesus’ dying on the cross was in vain. God murdered His Son for nothing, if my righteousness is based on my performance. O foolish Galatians…This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ‘For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.’ So, Is Salvation by works, or by faith? Is a work begun in faith made perfect by the works of the flesh? And if one must be Born Again according to Jesus Christ in order to see the kingdom of God, how does one become un-born again? Does God practice spiritual abortions? We are justified in Christ Jesus because of HIS finished work of salvation and we are declared righteous by God by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are saved unto good works, not by good works.”
RESPONSE:
“Saving grace always produces good fruit and good works and is proof one is saved – BUT good works and good fruit save no one – only Jesus can do that. See Matthew 3:7-10; Jude 3-4 and Titus 2:11-12. You have correctly stated that “We are justified in Christ Jesus” and yet we must remain “in Christ” to continue to be justified (Jn. 15:6; Col. 1:23; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:6, 12-14; 10:26-39; 2 Jn. 9, etc.). We are only saved by His grace and our faith is required to (Eph. 2:8-10). You stated “We are saved unto good works, not by good works.” This is truth and yet those who are truly saved have the fruit of such grace (Tit. 2:11-12). The “fruits” of their lives testify to their possession of His saving grace (Matt. 7:16, 19-20). The Son of God told us that those who do not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown out of His vineyard – “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matt. 7:19) Those who truly have His justifying grace are His workmanship and do not have a license for living in sin (Eph. 2:8-10; Jude 3-4). His grace actually enables them to overcome sin and to live fully pleasing to Him – To those who truly possess it, His saving grace is “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.” They are given over to Him and He is fashioning them into His own image (Rom. 8:29). If not, one does not possess the divine, saving grace (Tit. 2:11-12). We must not reason instead of being honest about the Word of the God. We must refuse self-willed arguments are human reasonings and pandering to the flesh, to justify living this life as we wish instead of how God has commanded. The Bible tells us we are not our own if we have been bought by the blood of the LORD Jesus (1 Cor. 6:19-20). If we live as WE wish instead of how the LORD commanded us to, we are lawless and will be found on that Day to be “workers of iniquity (lawlessness) and cast into eternal damnation with no 2nd chance (Matt. 7:21-23). So, those who justify themselves through human philosphy and tradition of calvinism have been spoiled or ruined and are in big trouble (Col. 2:8). Jesus and His apostles told us that sin “defiles” men and even named those sins which defile out of His love for us – so we would specifically know what offends His holiness (Matt. 15:19-20). He has disclosed to us His holy will in intricate detail and we are therefore without excuse and will be without excuse on that Great and Terrible Day of Judgment that hastens toward us. Does sin separate us from the one, true holy God? (Isa. 59:2; Rom. 6:23; Acts 1:25; Gal. 5:17-19; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Rev. 21:8, 27) Jesus is Coming, todd www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com
E-MAIL RESPONSE FROM READER:
“Now what you are saying is, ‘if I keep all these rules you have stated, and all the other commands found in the Bible then I will be right with God.’ If I can do that then why do I need Jesus? If I can keep all these commandments and be right before God, or Righteous then I don’t need a redeemer and Jesus’ dying on the cross was in vain. God murdered His Son for nothing, if my righteousness is based on my performance. O foolish Galatians…This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ‘For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.’ So, Is Salvation by works, or by faith? Is a work begun in faith made perfect by the works of the flesh? And if one must be Born Again according to Jesus Christ in order to see the kingdom of God, how does one become un-born again? Does God practice spiritual abortions? We are justified in Christ Jesus because of HIS finished work of salvation and we are declared righteous by God by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are saved unto good works, not by good works.”
RESPONSE:
“You have correctly stated that “We are justified in Christ Jesus” and yet we must remain “in Christ” to continue to be justified (Jn. 15:6; Col. 1:23; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:6, 12-14; 10:26-39; 2 Jn. 9, etc.). We are only saved by His grace and our faith is required to (Eph. 2:8-10). You stated “We are saved unto good works, not by good works.” This is truth and yet those who are truly saved have the fruit of such grace (Tit. 2:11-12). The “fruits” of their lives testify to their possession of His saving grace (Matt. 7:16, 19-20). The Son of God told us that those who do not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown out of His vineyard – “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matt. 7:19) Those who truly have His justifying grace are His workmanship and do not have a license for living in sin (Eph. 2:8-10; Jude 3-4). His grace actually enables them to overcome sin and to live fully pleasing to Him – To those who truly possess it, His saving grace is “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.” They are given over to Him and He is fashioning them into His own image (Rom. 8:29). If not, one does not possess the divine, saving grace (Tit. 2:11-12). We must not reason instead of being honest about the Word of the God. We must refuse self-willed arguments are human reasonings and pandering to the flesh, to justify living this life as we wish instead of how God has commanded. The Bible tells us we are not our own if we have been bought by the blood of the LORD Jesus (1 Cor. 6:19-20). If we live as WE wish instead of how the LORD commanded us to, we are lawless and will be found on that Day to be “workers of iniquity (lawlessness) and cast into eternal damnation with no 2nd chance (Matt. 7:21-23). So, those who justify themselves through human philosophy and tradition of calvinism have been spoiled or ruined and are in big trouble (Col. 2:8). Jesus and His apostles told us that sin “defiles” men and even named those sins which defile out of His love for us – so we would specifically know what offends His holiness (Matt. 15:19-20). He has disclosed to us His holy will in intricate detail and we are therefore without excuse and will be without excuse on that Great and Terrible Day of Judgment that hastens toward us. Does sin separate us from the one, true holy God? (Isa. 59:2; Rom. 6:23; Acts 1:25; Gal. 5:17-19; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Rev. 21:8, 27) Jesus is Coming, todd www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com
RESPONDER:
“Answer the following: Given: in order to be saved, you must be Born Again (John 3:3, 7; 1 Peter 1:23). Given: when you are Born Again you are a Child of God (John 1:12; Romans 8:13-20; Philippians 2:15; 1 john 3:1-3). We are in fact adopted sons (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Galatians 4:5; and Ephesians 1:5) and adoption is a binding legal term that even in our society is more protected than blood kinship (i.e. a blood line child can be written out of a will whereas an adopted child is required to receive the full child’s portion). How then can one who is a saved, Born Again, Child of God lose their heirship? How can one who is a saved, Born Again, Child of God lose their sonship? Even in the deepest, darkest, and most rebellious time in the prodigal son’s life he was still his father’s son. (Now if you read into that statement that I am saying eternal salvation is a license to sin, the Lord rebuke you, for I have said no such thing.) But answer, how can one who is as son un-become a son? Try as I may I am still my parent’s son. As a son I am to honor my parents. (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16; Matthew 15:4, 19:19; Mark 7:10, 10:19; Luke 18:20; Ephesians 6:2 ) As an adopted son of God I am likewise to honour my Father which is in Heaven. I am to be holy as He is holy. Now, please answer my question. How can I stop being My heavenly Father’s son?”
REPLY TO OSAS RESPONDER:
Thank you for writing. You are using adoption and how it is used among men to justify an unbiblical teaching. I sincerely appreciate your desire to know the truth as it sounds. Yet you ask questions based on human logic and use very little Scripture. You ask: “How then can one who is a saved, Born Again, Child of God lose their heirship? How can one who is a saved, Born Again, Child of God lose their sonship?” Want God’s answer? Romans 11:20-22 says “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches (covenant Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee (saved Gentiles). 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity (eternal judgment); but toward thee, goodness, IF IF IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.” Of his very own free will, the prodigal son was separated from his father yet not from His father’s love (Lk. 15). When in rebellion the prodigal son was not secure in his father’s care – he was not eternally secure. He had to repent to be restored or he would have died outside of fellowship with his father. This is a clear picture of the believer departing from the LORD. If he returns in repentance he will be fully restored, but if he refuses to return, he will perish in hell forever. “For this my son was dead, and is alive AGAIN; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry…for this thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN; and was lost, and is found.” Luke 15:24, 32 A “Jesus” who doesn’t punish sin is simply a false Christ. The son who left his father stopped believing. One may argue that he was still a son, but another may rightfully argue that he lost all of the benefits of being a son while he was in unbelief and would have perished if he had not returned to his father. No person can come to the conclusion of an unconditional eternal security by reading the Bible alone and deriving his doctrinal belief solely from the Word. One must be taught such be mere men. OSAS is a doctrine of devils, leading many to perdition who believe they are eternally secure (Jude 3-4). I want to recommend the new book titled “Lie of the Ages” which is now in print and thoroughly addresses this topic from Holy Scripture. Also, we have some articles on the site concerning this important subject.
RESPONDER:
Sir, in your rush to prove your doctrine you missed the entire point. No, I was not using adoption to to justify an unbiblical point. Adoption is very biblical and you blew it off as trivial in order to justify your “WORKS” doctrine. If you look there is an abundance of Scripture in my previous post that is in context as well. However, You never answered the question. Israel was a chosen people that God has set aside until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (Romans 11:25b), He is not finished with them yet. I am talking about a Born Again child of God. You look on God as standing over you waiting to kick you out of the house the moment you mess-up. I see Him as my Father who is grieved when I sin but who put up a calf to fatten it for a feast awaiting my return. I am talking as one who was dead and is now alive unto Christ. I’m not talking about a Sunday Church goer, I’m talking about a Redeemed, Born Again, heir and joint heir with Christ. Show me in the Scriptures where a son is cut off from the Father. Now, lest I be accused of advocating “license to sin”; as the one who has been redeemed I serve my Redeemer, my Saviour out of love and gratitude for what He redeemed me from and what He bestowed on me when He bought me.(Romans 12:1-21) I grow and mature just as a child grows and matures. As I walk and grow I surrender more and more of my life to Him, and I become more aware of sin in my life and I am responsible to confess and forsake that sin.(Sanctification) Alas, I shall never convince you of your eternal position in Christ Jesus. I do grieve that you use your bully pulpit to attack those of us who hold to the biblical doctrine of Eternal Salvation.
RESPONSE:
Why would the apostle Paul use the covenant relationship between the LORD and Israel as an exampleand warning to the SAVED Gentiles (us)if such were not applicable? Ludicrous thought! You state “I am talking as one who was dead and is now alive unto Christ. I’m not talking about a Sunday Church goer, I’m talking about a Redeemed, Born Again, heir and joint heir with Christ.” Where did you get these very terms? From Romans – to the VERY EXACT heirs of salvation the Holy Spirit is warning to “Fear” lest they be “cut off” also as the covenant Jews were (Rom. 11:19-23) You asked “Show me in the Scriptures where a son is cut off from the Father.” Ready? Here we go – “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry…It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN; and was lost, and is found.” Luke 15:24, 32
The son who left his father stopped believing and being in his father’s care. One may argue that he was still a son, but another may rightfully argue that he lost all of the benefits of being a son while he was in unbelief and would have perished if he had not returned to his father.
Please look at the above Bible text again and note some basic things that are irrefutable:
1) “my son” – sonship a relational term (represents a saved person; a person who has a father / son relationship with the heavenly Father)
2) “was dead” – as Jude speaks of, a person can be “twice dead, plucked up by the roots” (Jude 12) “Twice dead” simply refers to the apostate person who was initial born dead in sin then got saved and fell away “again.” How could a person be “plucked up by the roots” from a place he wasn’t already planted? Impossible.
3) “alive AGAIN” – need we explain that again means for a second time?
4) “my son…was lost” – after being a son of his father, he become lost again
5) “thy brother” – yet another clear reference to familial relationship – sonship. One could not possibly be a “brother” to another if he is not first a son to the same father. Yes we have “Eternal salvation” and yet such is only promised to those who “obey Him.” Heb. 5:9 says “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all THEM THAT OBEY HIM.” This is consistent with Christ’s words in Matt. 7:21 – “1Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus is Coming – Ready or Not!
For a thorough study of the eternal security question, see book titled Lie of the Ages.
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.’ This teaching magnifies the ‘verilies,’ but discounts the ‘ifs’; yet both are given by God and are equally inspired. Conditions of salvation and conditions of keeping are not named in every Scripture. Scriptures of warning are addressed to such believers as may be careless, indifferent, trifling, boastful, or presumptuous. The usual group of Scriptures quoted by the eternal security believers are the kind that are needed to encourage and sustain the fearful, trembling, and weak saints who earnestly desire to do the will of their Lord, but are harassed by the devil and beset with doubts. ‘Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be destroyed,’ was a ‘verily’ as far as the statement was concerned, but there was an ‘if’ implied in one of the promises of God. (See Jer. 18:1-12.) Such Scriptures as John. 10:27, 28; Col. 3:1-3; John.3:36; 5:24; Jude 24; Rom. 8:34-39; Heb. 7:25, and a lot of others that might be given are precious to every believer. They make it clear that we are safe in Christ Jesus. No outside power or influence, neither men, angels, nor devils, can come between us and our Lord; but there are conditions of salvation and there are conditions that govern our keeping. We do not question God’s sovereignty, His power, His omnipotence; we believe and hold to all of them. On the other hand as honest people, we dare not close our eyes to the fact that God has laid a responsibility upon free moral agents that He does not violate by His sovereignty, His omnipotence, His election, or any other office or attribute belonging to Deity. The condition that saves is the same condition that keeps. Eternal security believers constantly underscore ‘hath’ in John 5:24 but overlook the condition, “believeth.” They will take John. 10:27-29 and underscore the ‘never perish’ and ‘no man is able to pluck them out of my hand,’ but ignore the fact that this promise is made to the ‘sheep that hear his voice and follow him.’ As long as this condition continues, the keeping continues. No other interpretation is consistent with free moral agency.” J.L. Stauffer
‘Once saved always saved’ is a mere cliche’ and no where to be found in God’s Word in word nor in concept. Friend, you reveal here that you do not personally know the Scriptures and yet you have drawn conclusion on this matter based upon the teachings of the mere men you have listened to. One cannot find unconditional eternal security in the Bible, it’s simple not there. Sin disqualifies the person from Heaven unless he repents and receives forgiveness through the blood of the LAMB – “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death…And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Revelation 21:8,27 Anybody want to argue with the LORD Almighty? I don’t and won’t.
The Message of Jesus Christ: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22 Here Jesus Christ, the Almighty God, tells His own twelve that those who persevere to the end of their lives remaining and continuing in obedience to Him “shall be saved.” Notice here in Matthew 10, the utter difference between what Jesus told His disciples and what so many leaders today tell the people. First, realize that Christ hand picked these twelve. There is the complete absence here of words like: “You are eternally secure” “God is not an Indian giver” “No matter what you do, you are sure for Heaven” “You are guaranteed Heaven because God is not an Indian giver” “It’s eternal life not temporary life” “Jesus is the good Shepherd, how could Jesus ever lose a sheep?” “You can’t obtain salvation by works, so you can’t loose it by bad works (sinning), it doesn’t matter what you do, you still have it.”
Salvation was paid for by Jesus “once” on the cross 2,000 yrs ago (Jn. 19:30; Heb. 10:12). The way that applies to the individual’s life is different. He must get in and remain in the will of God by repentance and faith in Christ alone (Acts 20:21, etc.). Peter was re-saved or re-converted (Lk. 22:31-32). James 5:19-20 speaks of re-saving a brother who errs into sin from spiritual death (James 5:19-20)
You said there were no Scripture in part I? I count 9 whole verses. Need a calculator? Numbers don’t lie. Do you really believe God at His Word? “Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.” Ezekiel 33:12-13
It is interesting to note that no one here is yet speaking of the holiness of God. Forget the “sovereignty of God” as you put it, what about the holiness of God? The word “holy” and “holiness” appear 595 times in the Bible. The word “soveriegn” or “sovereignty” appear 0 times in the Bible. So in using this term and making far too much of an emphasis on it, we see that many are perverting the nature of the Almighty. We are to take Him at His Word which speaks of His holiness nearly 600 times and never once mentioned His sovereignty as you do. “But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” 1 Pet. 1:15-16 If any person (whether previously saved or not) dies outside of a holy relationship with the one true holy God, hell awaits (Gal. 5:19-21; Heb. 12:14; Rev. 21:8,27).
Ever read the book of Jude? It’s primary subject is apostates and apostasy. How can one leave or apostasize from something he never previously possessed?
Got any Scripture? Or are you living off cliches (like OSAS) and human philosophy propatated by false teachers? Divine authority is invested in the Scriptures of the Prophets, Apostles and the LORD Himself (2 Tim. 3:15-17). “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF IF IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end…Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Heb. 3:6,12-14)
Still see no Scripture. You have fashioned a god in your image – one who allows for things that the one true God tells us He doesn’t and won’t. “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.” Ezek. 18:30
“Sealed” does not mean indelibly. You are reading into things. Jesus’ tomb was sealed (Matt. 27:66) but we all know it didn’t stay that way 😉 By the way the same Greek word is used as in Eph. 4:30 and 1:13. WHAT ABOUT JUDAS? https://safeguardyoursoul.com//html/what_about_judas.html
Have you ever read John 10:27 to see exactly who Jesus promised eternal life to and the associated assurance? He gave a qualification or two which are ongoing. Repentance and faith are necessary to receive initial salvation and also ongoing requirements (Lk. 13:3,5; Rom. 5:1-2; 1 John 1:7; Col. 1:23; Heb. 3:6; 6:12-15; 10:26-39).Jesus’ promise was conditional upon the one who has received the gift after repenting. He must remain or “abide” in Christ or he will be burned (Jn. 15:6) “If a man abide (remain) not in me, HE is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire (hell), and they are burned.” (Jn. 15:6)
The term “sins that are passed” appears in Romans 3:25. Nothing is said in Scripture to gaurantee that ALL FUTURE sins in the individuals life are going to be automatically forgiven and overlooked by the LORD. That is a deception, a lie of Satan. There is an ongoing condition to meet for the believer (one who is currently believing) to obtain forgiveness – “IF IF IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
WHO DID JESUS SAY IS SECURE? JOHN 10:27-29 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:27-29 First off Jesus identifies those sheep whom He makes the security promise to. He says “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” In this we see one part divine and two parts the responsibility of the individual. “I know them” – the divine part (v27) Those who are His sheep “hear” His “voice” and “follow” Him – the individual’s responsibility (v27) Those who seek to spread the ‘once saved always saved’ heresy use John 10:28-29 to their advantage and conveniently ignore the preceding words of Christ in verse 27. Verses 28-29 are promises of security to those who are currently hearing His voice and following Him. Many ignore the previous qualifying words (v27) of Jesus where Christ tells us that only those who are hearing His voice and following Him are promised that they are secure and will never perish. There is a condition to being secure in Christ – knowing Him – which requires continuing to abide in Him, hear His voice and follow Him (see also John 15). In this John 10 passage used by the unconditional eternal security crew to peddle their wares, some neglect to look closely at verse 27 to see who Jesus was specifically speaking to when He promised “they shall never perish.” “They” refers to those who “hear my voice” and “follow me.” According to verse 27 the promise of eternal security is conditional. Assurance of salvation is only to those who are presently following Christ. In verse 27 we learn that protection from judgment to come is only to those who are currently 1) hearing His voice, 2) known by Him, and 3) following Him. This is consistent with the message seen in the whole of Holy Writ. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27 According to these words of Christ, those who “know” Jesus and “follow” Him are given the promise that they will “never perish.” As long as the follower hears His voice and follows Him, they are assured “eternal life.”
Christ said that “He that endureth to the end shall be saved”….so the security promise is only to those who die in faith and not just those who have initial faith and then “fall away.” (Matt. 10:22; Lk. 8:13). We are commanded to fear God and behold His holiness and “severity.” (Matt. 10:28; Rom. 11:22) His judgment will be sincere upon all who die in sin – regardless of their past relationship with Him. “For IF AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been BETTER for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” 2 Pet. 2:20-21
Jesus gave 4 types of heart soil the Word falls on not 3. See Luke 8:12-15. The 2nd type person is one who believes for a while then “falls away.” The Son of God invented the term “fall away” so obviously such is possible. “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” Luke 8:12
Jesus gave 4 types of heart soil the Word falls on not 3. See Luke 8:12-15. The 2nd type person is one who believes for a while then “falls away.” The Son of God invented the term “fall away” sp obviously such is possible. “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” Luke 8:12
Nevermind the human reasoning as to how the LORD views us. I suggest you read the Word of God closely and witness how many times we are warned to remain or abide in faith and obedience to Christ. According to the New Testament, saving faith can be: ”Cast off”: “But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.” 1 Timothy 5:11-12 ”Put away” and “Made shipwreck”: “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:” 1 Timothy 1:19 ”Denied”: “I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.” Revelation 2:13 “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” 1 Timothy 5:8 ”Departed from”: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” 1 Timothy 4:1 ”Failed”: “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not (if this were not possible, why would Jesus have prayed?): and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:32 ”Overthrown”: “Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” 2 Timothy 2:18 ”Erred from”: “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” 1Timothy6:10 “Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:21 Fallen Away from: One can “Fall away” from his believing/saving faith: “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” Luke 8:13
The “elect” are simply those who elect to be saved and continue to the end and not some special elite group as john calvin (major league heretic) taught (John 1:12; Matt. 10:22). See Rev. 17:14 to find out who is going to be in Heaven – being “faithful” is a requirement.
Jesus said that there are those who BELIEVE for awhile and in time of temptation “FALL AWAY.” (Luke 8:13) Wanna argue with the Almighty? How many virgins were likened to the kingdom of HEAVEN (not hell)? Go see what Christ told us in Matt. 25:1-13. Only 5 of the 10 made it. Warning! Beware! If one is living in sin instead of faith, he has no eternal security promise from God. If so, why so many warnings in Scripture? Dare we call the Son of God a lunatic? “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” 2 Pet. 3:17
Clever approach but not biblical. Salvation is obtained initially and maintained by faith (includes a repented life). There is no promise of Heaven outside of getting and staying washed in the holy blood of Christ…”But IF IF IF IF IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) Jesus told each of the 7 churches of Asia he addressed in Revelation 2-3 that only those who overcome would be with Him in Heaven. All divine promised are conditional (not unconditional) upon the initial and ongoing trust (which will always yield obedience) of the recipient. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD.” Heb. 12:14 Unholy people in God’s holy Heaven? Not a chance. Rev. 21:8,27
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4
There is a responsibility on the part of the individual to either receive or reject God’s salvation through Jesus Christ. “As many as recieved him to THEM gave he the right to become the sons of God.” John 1:12…with care and concern i would say that it sounds like you have been misled by john calvin’s heresies friend.”
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Articles
Is Romans 7 Before or After Paul’s Salvation?
“The truth is that while Christ dwells in the believer’s new nature, He has strong competition from the believer’s old nature. The warfare between the old and the new goes on continually in most believers.” AW Tozer
The law of God is “holy, and just, and good.” (Romans 7:12)
The holy law of God and the depraved nature of fallen mankind could not be further apart – the righteousness of God inherent in His law vs the “old man,” the iniquitous fallen nature of mankind (Ephesians 4:22; Colossians 3:9).
Nothing but a caustic reaction, explosion could be the result of the 2 colliding (Romans 7). One or the other must reign.
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Galatians 5:17
In what tense did the great apostle speak in when addressing this “old man” that wars against the Spirit in us?
“O WRETCHed man that I am! (presently) who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” Romans 7:24
Paul’s flesh was and our flesh is a constant reminder of the ever momentary need for the cross, burial, and resurrection grace of Jesus (Romans 6:3-10; 8:11; 2 Corinthians 4:10-12; Galatians 2:20, etc.). Read Romans chapters 6-7 each morning this week.
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18
No, the apostle wasn’t admitting to living in sin but rather that that “old man” – the flesh – was present and must be crucified with Christ daily. Is that not exactly what Jesus taught?
“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his CROSS DAILY, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.” Luke 9:23-24
I believe Romans 7 applies to both before and after one is saved …. Because if the saved person departs from the daily cross walk, that same “old man” will take center stage. “O wretch man that I AM (present)” (Romans 7:18) ….. we are born again children of God, saints of the Most High and yet that potential to evil, that “old man” must be crucified and “put off” by the daily cross so the “new man” can reign with Christ in this life and eternity. What Paul calls the “old man” must be “put off” and so we can conclude that there IS an “old man” to be “put off” otherwise no such instruction would have been given. We are not to deny the “old man” – the sinful bent – but rather to crucify it (Romans 6; Ephesians 4:22; Colossians 3:9).
Charles Pray writes: “So many want to hide their sins, especially those who like to appear Holy on the outside while inside they are dark, unholy ministers of the flesh. They have become a product of their own desires. Dear Lord, please bring them back to their first Love–Jesus! Amen.”
Saints, we cannot possibly begin to appreciate this “so great salvation” that is Christ until we understand how lost, helpless, and alienated we were in our sin (Ephesians 2:1-10; Hebrews 2:3). We must study to understand the biblical doctrine of inherent sin, fallen mankind, and the holiness of God …. in order to begin to be able to appreciate the redemption that is in Jesus Christ.
What to “Put Off” and What to “Put On”
“That ye put off concerning the former conversation THE OLD MAN, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on THE NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” Ephesians 4:22-24
“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off THE OLD MAN with his deeds; 10 And have put on THE NEW MAN, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:” Colossians 3:9-10
“When we embrace the crucified life we are given overflowing rivers of new life! New life is breathed into us. Walking in the flesh only makes our soul sick with sin! And sin kills and destroys! (Romans 6:23). Rotting us from the inside out! But the way of the cross brings life to our flesh! (Proverbs 3:8, 4:22). Our flesh meaning our whole spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23. We cannot be a whole person until we are completely given over to the Lord! And this can only happen through the cross. When we are dead and buried and raised up in the newness of life Jesus offers us, then the joy of the Lord will fill our hearts!” Karen Cochran
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Mission Mexico Elvita Dejected then Blessed [video]
“Wow! God is sure blessing this ministry! And given you the heart of a servant. As I listened to these stories and saw all the pictures all I heard was Jesus! This whole Mexico Mission is all about Jesus! Not Todd but Jesus. Hallelujah!” Karen Cochran
Spanish Content on SafeGuardYourSoul | The JESUS tract in English and Spanish
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Articles
What Did Paul mean by “Double Honour”? [podcast]
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” 1 Timothy 5:17-18
“Double honour” is generous but not lavish. “Double honour” limits the income of “the elders that rule well.” This would be in contrast to the many pastors today who make themselves rich in this world, as they “make merchandise” of their prey, the people they lead (2 Peter 2:1-3).
Do we not realize that “double honour” actually prevents making merchandise of God’s people by making millionaires our of con men? You are not wiser than God, sinner. You don’t decide what His Word says. It’s best to shut up in humility and simply render humble obedience on this topic, doctrine, and all others.
“Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice …” 1 Samuel 15:22
Tithing is not taught in the New Testament. Giving is to be done out of worship, gratitude, and the honor of the LORD. Christ’s New Testament disciples are to give out of a “cheerful” heart (2 Corinthians 9:7). Here is what the apostle Paul wrote about our giving under the New Covenant:
“But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. ” 2 Corinthians 9:6-11
It’s actually sickening to see how some, out of their own darkened and corrupted hearts, want to starve out the God-called elders from carrying out their divinely ordained duties to feed and equip the flock and to watch for their souls.
Some people are so deep in darkness and therefore blinded that they don’t realize that the work that they do in this world to earn money is not even important compared to the paramount divine work of an elder that God has prepared, sent forth, and diligently feeding His blood-bought flock.
“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. … 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” Hebrews 13:7, 16-17
1 Timothy 5:17-18 is specifically of those called-by-God elders “who labour in the word and doctrine.”
“Double honour” here is twice the average earning in the specific economy and time. This apparently is so that they have no financial worries and can concentrate on the most important work in the earth, the kingdom of Christ—feed His flock (John 21:15-17; 1 Peter 5:1-6, etc.). “The elders that rule well” are those who are to be given “double honour” and not the greed-driven enterprising salesmen …..
Of “double honour” one source notes the following (1 Timothy 5:17-18):
“In 1 Timothy 5:17, the “double honor” refers to giving financial support, respect, and esteem to elders who lead the church well and especially to those who work hard at preaching and teaching. This concept is rooted in the Old Testament principle that a laboring ox should not be muzzled, and a worker deserves their wages, highlighting the importance of caring for those who labor in ministry.”
What kind of men does the LORD look for to servant lead?
“Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:” Exodus 18:21
Paul’s refusal to covet what is not his own, in no way negates the compensation God has ordained for those who labor in His Word and doctrine to feed His sheep (1 Corinthians 9). There is no contradiction. Paul’s refusal to receive of the Corinthians doesn’t mean he didn’t receive from others. Take a look:
“And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.” 2 Corinthians 11:9
The above verse, revelation proves the argument wrong that suggests that ministers of the Gospel of Christ should reject receiving any giving to do His work.
The fact that “double honour” is appropriate to the elders described in 1 Timothy 5:17-18 is in NO way means this “double honor” compensation should be demanded. No. Yet God has stated such and in my opinion, from this passage and 1 Corinthians 9 and the Levites of the Old Testament, He says it should be a sufficient portion, a sufficient, a generous compensation that is supplied to “the elders that rule well.” Perhaps He stated double honor in order to be a measure of what is not enough and what is too much and so the elders defined here do not have to feel guilty. Also, is it not conducive to peace in one’s calling to know his bills are paid? As in no muzzling, no starving out the elder ox who treads out the corn of God’s Word, who works to feed the flock of God.
“Double honor – Διπλης τιμης. Almost every critic of note allows that τιμη here signifies reward, stipend, wages. Let him have a double or a larger salary who rules well; and why? Because in the discharge of his office he must be at expense, in proportion to his diligence, in visiting and relieving the sick, in lodging and providing for strangers; in a word, in his being given to hospitality, which was required of every bishop or presbyter.” Adam Clarke
“[Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine] Ruling elders, especially preaching and teaching elders are to receive double honor or wages (1Ti_5:17-18; 1Co_9:6-14; Gal_6:6; Heb_7:1-10). See note, Act_14:23.” Dake
“Let him that is taught in the word communicate (give) unto him that teacheth in all good things.” Galatians 6:6
The Greek word for “communicate” here is:
“koinōneō
koy-no-neh’-o
From G2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively): – communicate, distribute, be partaker.”
We are privileged to supply those who feed us, to fund those who feed us God’s Word. Such men perform the most important and only eternal work in our lives in this world as we look for the soon return of our LORD.
Is “double honour” also not a demarkation…. where those who would dare exceed double honour to make themselves rich in this world are known as those who are making merchandise of the people? See 2 Peter 2:1-3. What the self-righteous who attempt to change “double honour” into something other than what it is don’t understand, is that “double honour” is a parameter that actually keeps men from making merchandise of the people, making themselves millionaires at the expense of, while exploiting the people. God is all wise….
John Wesley notes:
“Let the elders that rule well – Who approve themselves faithful stewards of all that is committed to their charge. Be counted worthy of double honour – A more abundant provision, seeing that such will employ it all to the glory of God. As it was the most laborious and disinterested men who were put into these offices, so whatever any one had to bestow, in his life or death, was generally lodged in their hands for the poor.”
It’s quite amazing how some expect the men who are prepared, called out by God to do the infinitely most important work in the earth are to do it for free. The origins of this lie which directly contradicts God’s Word, is “another spirit,” Satan—who wars against the LORD and His servants.
It seems that perhaps some become disillusioned when they realize they’ve been deceived by wolves in sheep’s clothing. Then they don’t give at all and yet the Word instructs us to give and to specifically give to the ministries that feed us the pure Word (Galatians 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:17-18).
The lost will never supply, support God’s work. And that’s because they are not of God and that the LORD has left that opportunity for His own people – to lay up treasure in glory which He instructed us to do (Matthew 6:19-21).
God’s people are divinely called and are to be allowed and granted the blessed opportunity to give to HIS work—not forcefully coerced but given opportunity (2 Corinthians 9:7). This is clear in Scripture. When we give, we thereby learn to trust Him who replenishes our supply as He so often promised to do (Proverbs 3:9-10; 2 Corinthians 9:6-11, etc.). It would be wrong to disallow God’s people from giving actually. Moses did not stop God’s people from giving until there was so much given by God’s people that there was nowhere else to contain it! He had to tell them to stop bringing their things to the work of the LORD because they had nowhere else to store it—there was too much of it (Exodus 35). To tell people not to give to God’s work(ers) would mean he forbade them from doing what the LORD told His people to do from the beginning—give. The Levites were one of the twelve tribes of Israel set forth to continually worship and serve the LORD and His people, and Paul, Christ’s apostle, draws from this very truth/fact in 1 Corinthians 9 below.
God provides, yes, and His stated desire to supply, at least in part, is through His body—and that is so that they partake of the blessings both now and eternally (Galatians 6:6; 1 Corinthians 9:1-14; 1 Timothy 5:17-18). A proper and more thorough view of God’s kingdom reveals that to shut off the opportunity of giving and forbid His children from giving, stifles blessings.
When your reaction to evil produces more evil (causes you to trample on the clear contents of God’s Word, to pervert it), you know you fit what Paul calls men of corrupt minds (1 Timothy 6). While over reacting you perfect what Satan and his wolves perverted, you also are guilty of teaching against the LORD you falsely claim to serve and thereby bear false witness against the Almighty. “Let God be true and every man a liar” (Romans 3:4). You have joined the ranks of those you condemn in that you too have “limited the holy one of Israel” while denying His truth, as you pretend to defend the faith (Psalms 78:41).
“For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 2:17
“Jeremiah 3:15: ‘And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you knowledge and understanding.’ These are pastors who live according to God’s word and understand the very heart of God, which is His Word (Psalm 33:11). We have very few of these in this late hour! Most are too consumed with self.” Karen Cochran
Your ill-advised inner embattlement that consumes you doesn’t change the very Word of God. You have over reacted and dismissed the very Word of the God you claim to serve. This puts you in the same camp as those you condemn. Isn’t it time for you to step back and get into the place of repentance before a holy God? That way you will cease perverting the right ways, the Word of God – trampling its contents out of the imbalance.
“Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. 13 Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.” Hosea 10:12-13
“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.” Proverbs 18:13
Tithing? No. Levitical Priesthood Pattern brought into light by the apostle Paul? Yes.
It seems some are basing things on the wolves’ exploitation of the people and putting their weight there more than on the Scriptures which are clear concerning the compensation of certain elders, such as in 1 Corinthians 9 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18, etc. The Levites also. No the New Testament doesn’t teach tithing. No I am not trying to get anyone’s money, yet this ministry outreach accepts any cheerful giving from Christ’s saints…. which helps allow many to be reached with God’s Word.
Some novices on this thread seem to be making presumptuous conclusions of those who simply seek to stand on top of the whole counsel of Scripture on this topic. We must never abandon truth, God’s doctrine, due to others abusing it. Never abandon to abuse as it’s been put. We never throw out any part of the Word due to the abuse of it by others (Psalms 119:104, 128; 2 Corinthians 2:17).
A common misapplication of Scripture happens when people say “Freely ye have RECEIVED, freely GIVE.” (Matthew 10:8)
Watch closely what they quote – “Freely ye have RECEIVED, freely GIVE.” (Matthew 10:8) How are the men, the elders whom GOD has prepared and called out to serve HIM going to “GIVE” unless they are receiving? Some are misusing this verse. In the context of Matthew 10, the apostles had RECEIVED the Word, the Gospel from Christ and therefore were to GIVE it to others freely. That’s what ministry is and this is spoken in context of Jesus sending forth His disciples to minister. This in no way negates that God’s people are to be givers as they obey His command to lay up treasure in Heaven, to work so they “have to give”, but supporting His work – the going forth of His Word to feed, nourish, and equip Christ’s saints (Matthew 6:19-21; Ephesians 4:28). “How dwelleth the love of God in” those who don’t give? And where else to give but to poor Christians and the elders and work of Christ?
“But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” 1 John 3:17
Are God’s people not instructed to fund those who feed them God’s Word? Yes. (Galatians 6:6)
How nonsensical for God to send forth men to be used of Him without the plan in place to provide for them. (1 Corinthians 9:1-14)
How nonsensical for the LORD to instruct His saints to give, to lay up treasure in Heaven and not waste it on earth, without the plan in place for where they are to give? (Matthew 6:19-21)
Some make the common novice mistake of concluding that God’s Word should be disobeyed, His true elders should not be funded but rather starved out, all because his enemy, Satan, has used false prophets to make merchandise of many (2 Peter 2:1-3).
What Does the Bible Say about the Compensation of Christ’s True Ministers? Is this topic addressed in God’s Word? If so, what does it say?
Compensation for true ministers is the stated ordained will of God (1 Timothy 5:17-18; 1 Corinthians 9:1-14)… problem is not pay but rather the hirelings who are getting paid…. to mislead!
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” – 1 Timothy 5:17-18
Reading these 2 verses together makes it clear that “double honour” includes financial compensation. Otherwise the command of v. 18 is being violated—when called out elders are labouring in the Word and doctrine are being muzzled. Seems this could not be more clearly stated than the Holy Ghost through Paul penned it.
“Double honour” is to be given to divinely called-out elders “especially they who labour in the word and doctrine” (1 Timothy 5:17-18).
“Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” – 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 KJV
Recently one man attempted to reduce “double honour” to mere respect until shown the never verse, verse 18. He blocked me instead of amending his ways to believe the contents, the Word of Holy Writ.
“Double Honour”
“And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.” Luke 10:7
What does the Bible tell us concerning those who minister the Gospel?
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour (sufficient of generous financial reward), especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” 1 Timothy 5:17-18
“Double honour” specifically means twice the average pay of the present economy. In general that means that God wants those He calls out into ministry to be well taken care of. And, that’s the responsibility of those who are fed by that ministry.
“Elders (5:17-25) 5:17 The rest of this chapter deals with elders. First of all, Paul lays down the rule that elders who rule well should be counted worthy of double honor. Rule might be translated ‘take the lead.’ It is not a question of control, but of example, such elders are worthy of double honor. Honor might mean respect, but it also includes the idea of financial reimbursement (Matt. 15:6). Double honor includes both ideas. First of all, he is worthy of respect from God’s people because of his work, but also, if his time is devoted to this work fully, he is also worthy of financial help. Those who labor in the word and doctrine are probably the ones who spend so much time in preaching and teaching that they are not able to carry on regular employment.
5:18 Two scriptures are introduced here to prove the statement that the elder is worthy of recompense. The first is Deuteronomy 25:4, and the second is taken from Luke 10:7. … These scriptures teach that an ox which is used in the harvesting process should not be deprived of a share of the grain. Also, a laborer is entitled to a portion of the fruit of his labor. So it is with elders. In spite of the fact that their work not be be physical, yet they are worthy of the support of God’s people.” William MacDonald, Believer’s Bible Commentary, pp. 2096-297
Let’s address a very important, core issue: Do you believe that you are worthy of the money you are paid to do the work you do for a living? Do you believe in your heart, that those who do the work of the ministry are worthy to receive financial blessings from doing this all-important work? If you don’t, may I suggest that there may be a poverty curse on your life that needs to be broken (Deuteronomy 26,28). At the very least, there could be a lack of what the LORD has stated about this.
Many of the servants of the LORD are suffering at the hands of those who have the opportunity to give to the work of the ministry and haven’t. Beloved, let’s turn things around for those who bring us the Word and do the most important work in the earth.
When we truly begin to aggrandize divine truth, we will then begin supporting only those who truly preach all of it (full-counsel) fearlessly and cease from funding the ministries of false prophets who allow most of their ministry revenues to be absorbed on things other than that which is at the core of importance in the divine economy, like the true building up of the saints – getting them into the Word for themselves, and winning lost souls.
Concerning the work and workers of God’s kingdom, the Bible instructs us in Ezra 6:8 – “forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered” – that is, that God’s Gospel laborers be not hindered in carrying out His work.
The reason all of God’s people are to give to His authentic work is “that they (Christ’s workers) be not hindered” (Ezra 6:8).
It’s quite alarming how some have a death grip on their earthly riches and so come running to defend their refusal to give to the LORD, to HIS work.
“All things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.” 1 Chronicles 29:14
May our LORD bless each of us to be cultivated in a heart filled with sincere and true worship and thanksgiving to Him.
“Freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:8
We should understand that we have freely received the salvation of our God in Christ and that those who don’t give out of the mercy, forgiveness, love, supply that He has given us, are not in God’s will. Out of what God gives us we give out and this clearly proves we have given ourselves to the LORD. We are not still serving the false god of self and therefore mammon (Matthew 6:19-24). When Jesus spoke of giving and it will given back to us, He’s speaking of all these things and not just giving out of the monies God has prospered us with (Luke 6:38).
These darkened souls seem to attempt to reduce giving to merely giving out the Gospel that we received. The Bible says there’s much more to the stewardship of the LORD’s resources (Matthew 25).
RECEIVING and GIVING in God’s Word expands far being saved and giving others the Word.
Every disciple is to give his life to the LORD as Jesus came and gave His life freely to saved us (Luke 14:33; 17:33; 19:27; John 12:23-25, etc.). BUT first that life, eternal life, is to RECEIVE from Christ and we give it back to Him.
There is no giving until we have received of the hand of God.
“ALL THINGS COME of THEE and of thine own have we given thee.” 1 Chronicles 29:14
Have we really given our lives to Christ who gave all if we don’t have a giving heart and hand?
There are seriously some people who HATE giving. They blame their refusal to be generous givers on the many false prophets who have made merchandise of them and many others. Also, they are greed driven hoarders who don’t want anyone suggesting that they should be cheerful, generous givers.
“Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.” 1 Timothy 6:17-19
Read that passage again and note that there is no “foundation against the time to come (eternal judgment),” no laying “hold on eternal life” if one doesn’t have saving faith, whereby he would otherwise be a giver. And everyone has something to give—just as the widow with the 2 mites (Mark 12:41-44). She gave all she had and Jesus honored it and yet did not honor those who gave a token tip, small percentages of what they possessed.
Every saint is to give of his substance, as he has received of God, so he is to give with a cheerful heart (Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 9:6-11; Ephesians 4:28, etc.).
It seems that the hoarding covetous, greed driven among us are possessed with deep hatred at the idea of giving. Their earthly gold is their god and they have rejected Christ (Matthew 6:21-24; Philippians 3:18-19). They have a deep and dark issue. Luke 12 and 16.
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” Ephesians 5:5
“(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)” Philippians 3:18-19
The following scathing rebuke was sent to a woman who denies that God has a plan in place to compensate the men, the elders He has prepared and called out to “labour in the word and doctrine.”
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” 1 Timothy 5:17-18
You have no biblical clue on this topic. It’s obvious from such a false statement.
Have you ever read, studied 1 Corinthians 9?
You’ve placed your personal issues above the Word of God which He has magnified above His own holy name and are in need of repentance (Psalms 138:2).
Were the Levites compensated? Yes.
So you like that the men who are prepared and ordained and sent out by God, to do the infinitely most important and only eternal work in the earth starve, and their families as well? Repent now.
Not one thing they state in arguing against Christ’s ministers being compensated undoes, negates the following Bible truth, facts:
1 Corinthians 9
Paul Surrenders His Rights
1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
Many are biblically illiterate on this topic and yet argue in their ignorance (Proverbs 18:13). Note that they will say things like:
“Paul worked and said for them to follow his example. We are NOT in the Old Testament.”
Paul specifically refers in the New Testament to the Old Testament divine pattern of God-called elders who wait upon and serve the LORD and His people to be compensated—for doing the most important and only eternal work in the earth. Paul ties together and builds on his argument by drawing from the divine pattern as it was with Levites, the Levitical priesthood.
“Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO?” 1 Corinthians 9:8
“Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” 1 Corinthians 9:13-14
“9:13 Paul next introduces the argument from the support of those who served in the Jewish temple. Those who had official duties in connection with the temple service were supported from the income the temple received. In this sense they lived off the things of the temple. Also, the priests themselves who served at the altar were given a certain portion of the offerings that were brought to the altar. In other words, both the Levites, who had the ordinary duties around the temple, and the priests, to whom were entrusted the more sacred duties, were alike supported for their service.” Believer’s Bible Commentary
Under the Old Covenant, the giving of the people went to the ordained set-apart full time ministers, servants of the LORD—the Levites, the Levitical priesthood. Paul brings that pattern into New Testament giving, supplying for the work of the LORD.
“And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.” Numbers 18:21
Clearly in his discourse on the compensation of God-called ministers, Paul is referring to this provision the LORD made for His servants under the Old Covenant in the middle of declaring and arguing that such is to be so under the New Covenant, in this time of the Church.
“Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO? … 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” 1 Corinthians 9:8, 13-14
It is quite an indictment some dare level against God to say that He had, has a plan to call out and use His elders to feed and equip His blood bought flock and somehow has no plans, no provisions to provide for them. Nonsense. The LORD is the One who declared that “the labourer is worthy of his hire” (Luke 10:7). Oh and He needed not nor asked for the puny permission of any mere sinner, man.
There was no money in the New Testament Scriptures collected to build a separate “church” building. The money went to the believers in need (the poor), elders teaching sound doctrine, etc. (Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35; Romans 15:26; 1 Timothy 5:17-18; 1 Corinthians 9:1-14, etc.). Also, we discussed that the highest paid elders are to be “they who labour in the word and doctrine” (1 Timothy 5:17-18). They are a type of New Testament full time servants of the LORD and His people—such as were the Levites, the Levitical priesthood under the Old Testament who were set apart to seek God and serve His people.
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” 1 Timothy 5:17-18
It’s interesting that you are not arguing that plumbers, accountants, attorneys, teachers, etc., should not be compensated for their work. Wow. That’s the spirit of antichrist in you, make no mistake.
Your thinking is very convoluted at best, speaking of things being twisted. The King James Bible is the pure preserved Word of God (Psalms 12:6-7). Paul established as did Jesus that the workman of the Gospel is worthy of his hire. This is irrefutable. The way the individual works out his own salvation with fear and trembling is between him and God (Philippians2:12-13).
Clearing Up the Confusion
The lengths some go to in order to dismiss their clear teaching of Scripture is telling, revealing their are antichrists who are speaking against the Word of God. Notice these same people who want God’s pastoral oxen starved out, removed from their posts have never argued that plumbers, accountants, teachers, and doctors, etc. should provide their own way, to refuse to be paid for what they do. Yet what those laborers do is a temporal work, an infinitely inferior work compared to those God calls out to do the most important and only eternal work transpiring in the earth. Repent now.
The abuse of some, of wolves, in no way negates the LORD’s plain teaching that His workers are to be compensated.
“The labourer is worthy of his hire.” Luke 10:7
God’s pattern of the Levites continues:
“Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO?” 1 Corinthians 9:8
Paul uses the illustration of how the military are worthy of their hire—to be compensated for carrying out their duties to provide protection for a nation.
“Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?” 1 Corinthians 9:7
“Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges?” In other words WHO within the military comes home from war and has to pay the bill he incurred by defending our nation? Does the USA give a bill to its military when they return from war? Such would be ludicrous and yet you foolishly suggest that men called to the infinitely most important warfare for the souls of men should be forced to fund their own way? God plainly disagrees.
To continue to make his point Paul then argues: “Who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof?” Yet you argue that those who plant gardens should refrain from eating of the fruits of that garden? And those who feed their flocks should not be able to drink of the milk of that flock.
Greedy, hoarding counterfeits hate the instruction to give. They have a death grip on their temporal trinkets and rusted gold which will be their eternal undoing (Luke 12, 16). Eternal damnation awaits (Ephesians 5:5).
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